Recent meetings: details

 

A long time ago it was great to be invited to a meeting of the old Forensic Engineering Society by Lawrence Reddaway. It was held in the small front room of the Half Moon Restaurant in Clifton Hill.  We were all on different tables but filled the room with intelligent, experienced and knowledgeable banter. Because this was all so stimulating, I kept coming. The group then was largely informal and chaired and organised by Len Cubitt.  Meetings were held at various places once in the summer evening heat, it was out in the backyard of the Half Moon. Len as well as organising the gathering, also always organised a guest presenter. 

As well as the obvious wisdom of those involved, the informality attracted me coming as it did, at a time when I had been battered around the ears several times by the bureaucracy and of the Institution of Engineers Australia.  As time passed, meeting frequency dropped off a bit and I missed going to them sufficiently to occasionally ring Len and ask when the next meeting will be. He indicated that he was becoming progressively more time-pressed and asked if I would first update his mailing list and then call a meeting for him. 

So we again came together on 31^st October 2007 on another warm evening this time, at the Leinster Arms in Collingwood, meeting first in the outdoor area and then in the dining room. This meeting kicked us off again. The mistake was when Len said a few gracious words, stated that he was standing down and then nominated me as the new chair. But here we are.  Since then we have had a Christmas Break-Up Meeting at Richard Lightfoot’s house all food and drinks provided where we also viewed the National Trust’s Beverley Joy Cornell art collection of which Richard was custodian. 

In 2008, we started in the George Langley Room at the Leinster Arms and all meetings have been held there since.  We have progressively become more formal with a committee of three of us (Mark Dohrmann, Ian Eilenberg and I) coming into being. Incorporation, an AGM, minutes, annual submissions to ASIC, a website, a photographer and a loaner of overhead projection equipment all followed as well as duties such as secretaryship and treasurying.  And Yes, also with relatively regular meetings and some fascinating topics, namely :-

 

Peter Hart                   -           on causes of electrical fires

Colin Baker                 -           on hazardous area electrical requirements

Greg Schofield            -           on being sued

Ian Eilenberg              -           on the Victorian bushfire record, and

Mark Dohrmann         -           on being an expert witness.

 

Recently Andrew Short joined us on the committee and together, all four of us continue to do our best to do our worst for the group. Andrew’s first contribution aside from organising this evening’s meeting, has been to set a schedule of meetings for the coming year for us all to consider. 

There are some musings among members about possibly becoming as formal as joining with IEAust, now known as Engineers Australia or EA. If we were still a loose society, I would oppose this because then we would no longer be our own bosses. But as an incorporated society, this is quite different. The Asset Management Council Inc is a definite part of EA but entirely runs its own show. Maybe this is the way to go for us now. Myself and the committee will be guided by you all. 

There is also a desire among some of us to become truly national. Perhaps down the track a bit but there is possibly, a relatively easy starting point. The former Forensic Engineering Society of Engineers Australia which was strongest in Perth, has folded and has now become a very small voice within EA. They may like to join us ! Again, let us know your thoughts. 

At this AGM too, we hope to elect a new office-bearer, a vice-chair. There is also one ordinary committee member place available if anyone is interested. In the usual way of course, all positions will be declared vacant this evening and a new committee will be elected. 

Apologies for this evening of which I am aware are Russ Lee, Peter Hart, Mark Dohrmann and Richard Lightfoot. All continue to be very much with us I am pleased to say.Particularly for Russ who has had serious health problems following which he has just received the all-clear and is recuperating in Port Douglas. 

That is all from me except to say thank you to Mark, Ian and Andrew for their masses of work on behalf of our group. Oh and also to Richard Lightfoot at Christmas 2007 when he visited the poor and starving with the St Vincent de Paul Society soup kitchen - yes we did sup the soup and eat the sarnie … thanks Richard.

 

Ian F Thomas

Chair, Forensic Engineering Society of Australia Inc

 

 * * *

 

Our autumn meeting (well, almost), was held on 3 June 2009 at the Leinster Arms in Collingwood,  where we considered matters of some importance  – the address was  “Ten ways to undermine an expert” – presented by Mark Dohrmann

Special welcomes to first-time attendees Gary Martin, Simon Langdon, Marcus Brache, David Lake, David Padfield, Leigh Booth, Michael Beale, Bob LeGuier, Geoff Waddell, Werner Ihle and Margaret Dando.  Apologies from Ian Eilenberg, Joe Spano, Andrew Enkelman, Reg Broadbent, Ian Thomas and Patrick Irwin.

 

Thanks to Andrew Short for recording and preparing this summary of the evening, including photos: 

 

  

 

This time Mark Dohrmann introduced topics concerning professionalism in expert witness work.  He went through the characteristics of an expert.  You must be comfortable in adversarial situations and not display the "ego" and so on. 

 

10 bases for objecting to evidence were -

1. Relevance - the conclusions are not relevant to what happened.   (e.g. the floor may be slippery, but he was shot while standing)

2. Hearsay (if tendered to prove the truth of what was said)

3. Conclusion (impermissibly interpreting the meaning of what was said)

4. Competence (and is it set out?)

5. Privilege

6. The "best evidence" rule (eg summarising an existing document)

7. Opinion evidence (similar to “competence”)

8. Assuming a fact which is not in evidence (but OK once an assumed fact is “proven”)

9. Evidence is confusing, misleading, ambiguous, vague, unintelligible

10. Argumentative presentation.

 

 

 

10 ways to undermine an expert were given as -

 

1. The question does not require an expert.

2. The point is outside the expert’s expertise.

3. No proper basis is set out to support the opinion.

4. An objective, demonstrative procedure is not set out.

5. Opinion given is based on speculation or inferences of fact.

6. Intrusion on an ultimate issue.

7. Impermissibly argumentative.

8. Irrelevance.

9. No “body of specialized knowledge” exists

10. Failure to comply with the Expert’s Code

 

 

 

 

There were many comments from the floor - notably from Len Cubitt, who replayed a number of his experiences.  Michael Beale and Lawrence Reddaway included a number of points of information and there was a throng of members from Attar present.   DVExperts were listening intently and representatives from Vic police were vigilant.  Peter Hart asked some searching questions and the other attendees all enjoyed the night.

 

* * * * *

 

Previous meeting:

 

At our first meeting earlier this year (25 March 2009) a warm welcome was extended to first-time guests Joe Spano, Patrick Irwin and Maxwell Shifman.  Welcome!  Apologies were received from Colin Baker, David Beauchamp, Reg Broadbent, George Rechnitzer, Gary Martin, Russell Lee, Kevin Poulton, Len Cubitt and Ted Dohrmann.

Buildings expert Ian Eilenberg spoke on "Fires.  What have we learnt?".  

He gave an interesting history of Victorian and other bushfires, underscoring their human and physical destruction in numbers and scale.  The presentation and input from those present then ranged across structural factors affecting the combustibility of houses, the evident failure to learn from past investigations, including the work produced by the CSIRO after the 1983 bushfires, the design of security bunkers and refuges, and the recent interim Victorian Regulations addressing building standards in fire-prone areas. 

Below: (L:) Ian Eilenberg takes a break; (R:) Lawrence Reddaway, who is drafting a small publication - "Building in Victoria after the Bushfires" - members were invited to comment and contribute to this work (you can contact Lawrence).  Incidentally, FESA members  Ian Thomas, Ian Eilenberg, Lawrence Reddaway, and George Rechnitzer (chairman) are all assisting the Safety Institute of Australia in preparing its submission to the Royal Commission into the bushfires.

Below, L to R:  Maxwell Schifman from DVExperts, Peter Hart, Richard and Elizabeth Lightfoot. Hostess Wilhelmina serves up.

Below: Peter Hart slightly overwhelmed by chef Frank's house seafood special, mussels and all:

   

Below, L:  Patrick Irwin and Joe Spano (both structural engineers) listening to Ian's talk; (R): Llz Lightfoot attentive:

 

The meeting's discussion then moved to the practical problems of being an expert witness:  working with barristers, handling attacks on your credit, presenting evidence, differences between engineering and legal reasoning, our need for training.  Mark Dohrmann described a paper he has in preparation for a legal conference - "Nine ways to undermine an expert" (with advice on how to anticipate trouble).  It was unanimously agreed that our next meeting (Wednesday June 3 2009) will pick up this topic and be built around an all-in, moderated discussion about working as an expert, aimed at helping all of us learn how to do a better and more effective job in court and beforehand.  Mark Dohrmann will convene it.

* * * *

Our last and well-attended meeting for 2008 was at our usual pleasant venue - the same Leinster Arms Hotel in Collingwood.  Apologies received from Werner Ihle, Trevor Rowlands, Simon Langdon, Kevin Poulton, John Marshall, Richard Lightfoot and Peter Hart.

Guest speaker at the meeting was Greg Schofield, consulting engineer, who spoke on "Being Sued: it happens!"   Greg spoke with passion about years of litigation and loss of reputation after a keystone wall he designed unexpectedly collapsed.  He explained the meticulous design process,  the adoption of a proven German model in the soil mechanics calculations, the uncertainties introduced by the involvement of other parties in the construction, and the vigour of lawyers and their appointed experts to find fault with his work.  The personal costs were also heavy.  Thankfully the indemnity insurers were there - a cautionary note for all of us who advise or design for others.

We enjoyed a pleasant meal (paid-up members enjoying a good subsidy);  wines and pre-dinner drinks were supplied by FESA.

Below:  Greg's address, with members and visitors in attendance -