Recent meetings: details
FESA's AGM on 25 August 2011 received reports from all office bearers over an excellent dinner at the Leinster Arms, Collingwood.
Summary: FESA is healthy, well supported, and now has 80+ people now taking an interest via the mailing list and/or membership. All meetings have been well attended, with excellent speakers, and the bank balance is in a good state. Several Victorians went to Perth at the end of the month to confer with our WA colleagues - former Risk Engineering Society people. Prospects for an active branch in Sydney - where Len Cubitt recently visited on FESA's behalf - appear promising. We'll also try now to use the website and other means to make meeting presentations (Powerpoints etc) more accessible to members who cannot attend in Melbourne.
We have a new Chairperson - John Lambert - congratulations!
The AGM - drinks, dining, conviviality ...
Below: Andrew Short brought some real honey ...
Joint scientific meeting
We were honoured to host delegates from the China Association for Science and Technology at the Royal College of Surgeons building in Melbourne on October 24 2011. This association represents some 180 separate societies covering mathematics, physics, mechanics, acoustics, genetics, psychology, navigation, railways, tobacco, composite materials, agricultural science and forestry. Together, these societies represent four million members. For our 80-strong organisation to host them was indeed an honour. We are collectively (and I am sure individually too) invited to meet with them in China. Our presentations were by Andrew Short (of Expert Reports) and by Len Cubitt and others from Delta V Experts. Thanks go to all involved but in particular to Andrew Short, Len Cubitt, John Lambert, and with the crucial assistance of new committee member, Patrick Irwin.
Below: barrister Michael Waugh presents; interpreter Penny with our Andrew Short
Below: Andrew Short receives a gift from our guests; our guests
Below: an appreciative audience; Shane presents
Below: Len Cubitt and Sheng Xiao Lie; Ian Thomas, John Lambert and Margaret
Below: a demonstration of slip resistance measurement; Tia Orton presents
Below: Ian Thomas receives a gift; Len Cubitt presents a certificate
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FESA visits Perth: Our Secretary and Chairperson went to Perth at the end of August to confer with former National Forensic Engineering Society officials and the National Chair of the Risk Engineering Society. These societies were/are part of Engineers Australia - RES has taken over the assets and duties of the former WA-based society. We are hopeful that forensic engineers in WA will join us in FESA and also that we might co-operate with RES for specific purposes. Our immediate past chairperson is a committee member and former national chair of RES.
WA Governor His Excellency Malcolm McCusker addresses the group:
L>R: Brian Truman, Peter Bruechle, Andrew Short, Ian Thomas; seated - Jack and Sharon Agpar
Australian Lawyers' Alliance chairman Greg Barnes with Andrew Short:
Below, from left: Andrew Short, Brian Truman, solicitor Stasia Hawke, Ian Thomas
30 June 2011: the evening's theme was Experts in court: gunslingers, cowboys or true professionals?
What tips do lawyers have for expert witnesses?
Also on the bill for the night was a discussion over dinner about professional indemnity insurance, led by Teresa from InterRisk Brokers…
3 March 2011:
Do you live near a fuel site? Should houses be built next to refineries?
Fifteen of us attended an interesting meeting at the Leinster Arms Hotel, Collingwood, for 7:30pm dinner followed by an illustrated talk by Ian Thomas on the Buncefield Chemical plant “event” (explosion of a petroleum vapor cloud following a tank overflow). Ian took us through the subject and led a discussion on Victorian planning laws as applicable to proximity to major hazard sites.
Below: the happy gathering.
Below:: Ian Thomas presenting, with spouse Joan to his right
Below: Michael Beale and Gary Martin.
:Below, left to right: Barry and Patrick Clearwater, Andrew Short, Max Kulessa
Below: John Lambert and happy partner Margaret.
Below: John with his PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) ready to tackle serious seafood. Gary Martin to the left.
Below: the session was well illustrated.
Below: Patrick Irwin, David Lake, Wayne Baker and Werner Ihle
Below, from left: Mark Dohrmann, Patrick Irwin, David Lake
All agreed it was a fine night - socially, technically and gustatorially. Thank you, Ian! Thanks, too, to Secretary Andrew Short for all his organising and provision of AV equipment.
Melbourne meeting - December 2nd 2010
Richard Lightfoot very kindly hosted another December “Sports Night” in his famous workshop at Clifton Hill, Melbourne.
Several people brought along some extremely interesting vehicles to the workshop. Thank you!
· At 7 pm there was a walk through the workshop to look closely at a number of vehicles on display. We discussed superchargers, Aston Martins, James Bond, and how handling technology has changed over time from vintage cars and motorbikes.
· Prawns and oysters were followed with a sumptuous barbeque of scotch fillet and salads.
· ....and later there began the darts, where no fitness was required. Russell Lee top scored on the two-dart comp with 63; Ron Cordingley got 61 with questionable methods.
Below: (L) Host Richard Lightfoot; (R) Lachie's bullsye
Below: (L) the Famous Workshop (with rumbling DB4); (R) Gavin Kotnik at The Darts
Below: Andrew Short
Below: Werner Ihle (L) and friends; (R) Ron Cordingley and Gwyn Griffiths
Below: it was boys' night (with several delightful ladies attending) ... Russell Lee follows approved form on the night with the scotch fillet straight off the fork ...
Many thanks to Richard Lightfoot for his hospitality.
September 2010 meeting: airbag suspensions in heavy vehicles.
On September 23 2010 after a drink at the bar (from 6:30) we sat down to dinner at the Leinster Arms Hotel, corner of Gold St and Hotham St Collingwood. The theme was a discussion led by John Lambert and Richard Lightfoot about airbag suspension in heavy vehicles.
Anyone involved in crash reconstruction or an interest in forensic engineering generally would have enjoyed the lively and practical discussion that followed.
Airbag suspensions are prevalent, and lots of questions arose …
If they are so great why do road trains refuse to use them?
They are designed to help stability, but do they work?
Do they reduce wear on roads or do they make it worse?
Do they prevent vibration related injuries to drivers?
Do they help vehicle braking ability?
Surely they should put them in the steering wheel and not the suspension – whose idea was that?
What performance standards should trailers have in relation to the airbag performance?
The AGM was also held on this evening.
Meeting - 27 May 2010::
Detective Acting Sergeant Brett Florence from Police Forensic Services spoke to us about What if you discovered that you didn’t actually own your car, and that it had even been involved in a crime? After being stolen or scrapped, cars can appear on the road again as if they have been re-born. Police Forensic Services have a division dedicated to cracking down on this ‘vehicle laundering’, which is some cases can be a genuine vehicle restoration project. Brett explained how expensive, desirable cars are stolen in England (for example). Students - often Asian - are recruited to burgle homes and pinch the car keys ("they're always in the kitchen"). Cars are then left parked in public carparks in case they have a GPS tracker fitted. If they're still there after 3 or 4 days, they are very skilfully cut into two (preserving all the panels) and trucked to Cyprus. From there it's a container ship to Australia, a declared "wrecked" value of say $450,000, and off for dismantling into parts which are on-sold to repairers for perhaps $10 million in total. The police can track cars from their parts to their country of origin and by collaboration, pinpoint stolen car details. For more details, see http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=254
Below: Brett Florence presenting to an interested group - and excellent service from the Leinster Arms staff:
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On December 8th 2009, there was a special event in Williamstown: a talk was given by John Lambert on the cues that people use to determine the speed limit for any particular roadway. The sub-theme was the suggestion that speed limiting devices be introduced into vehicles and that people end up speeding as without a sign, there are not a sufficient amount of reliable cues to determine the speed limit. Photographs of various road types were shown and members were asked to guess the speed limit. Members guessed incorrectly in more than half of the case, proving John’s point. On the night members were treated to a tour of the restoration of a series of Mark IV, V, 420G and XJ12L Jaguars and shown how, which some chemical knowledge, car fuel can be made from fat that may be thrown out from the local fish and chip shop. All members agreed it was a great event.
· In March, Risk 2010 was organised by the Risk Engineering Society and our president was on the organising committee. This was the second national conference of the society and was held at the MCG. There were a series of talks on forensic engineering given by our members, except that one of them (nameless) was held up in the Supreme Court . During the conference an update talk on the Coode Island fires was given and another on the importance of 'human deliberation' (copyright) in causing accidents. A planned talk on the Buncefield Accident was withheld, given court proceedings in progress at the time.
Last year's AGM and presentation - 8th September 2009
There were 10 of us present in the cellar at the Grace Darling Hotel to wine, dine, have the AGM and also to listen to and quiz our two guest presenters from the West Gate Bridge Strengthening Alliance -
John Dauth, Engineering Manager and Mark Douez, engineer responsible for concrete works. The Alliance comprises VicRoads, John Holland Constructions, Sinclair Knight Merz (SKM) and Fleet Neil (UK).
The AGM was short, sharp and convivial. The wine and food was good. The presentations were excellent and shared between the two. We had a fascinating and useful time, questioning and talking.
Above: John Francesini and Joan Thomas Above: Mark Douez and Andrew Short
Above: Patrick Irwin and Lawrence Reddaway Above: John and Margaret Lambert
Above: Nikola and friend Above: Speaker John Dauth
AGM: apologies were received from Kevin Poulton; Ian Eilenberg; Bob Leguier; Peter Hart; David Padfield; Mark Dohrmann; Colin Baker; Patrick Irwin; and Len Cubitt.
Outgoing Treasurer Mark Dohrmann (absent in Europe) tabled this Treasurer's report:
1. We received more than we spent.
2. We spent wisely - food and drink, in the main.
3. The books balance.
4. We have money in the bank, sufficient for a while yet.
5. Collecting cash and sorting out meal payments individually is a pain.
6. I was well supported, especially by Ian Eilenberg - thanks!
7. Numbers of people have not yet paid their Joining Fee.
8 Reminder: only financial members can appear on our Contacts webpage.
A copy of the Receipts and Expenditure report for the last financial year (to June 30 2009) together with a Balance Sheet was also tabled.
Elections: Ian Thomas was re-elected Chair; Andrew Short Secretary; Ian Eilenberg Treasurer. Mark Dohrmann agreed to maintain the FESA Website.
A long time ago it was great to be invited to a meeting of the old Forensic Engineering Society by Lawrence Reddaway. It was held in the small front room of the Half Moon Restaurant in Clifton Hill. We were all on different tables but filled the room with intelligent, experienced and knowledgeable banter. Because this was all so stimulating, I kept coming. The group then was largely informal and chaired and organised by Len Cubitt. Meetings were held at various places once in the summer evening heat, it was out in the backyard of the Half Moon. Len as well as organising the gathering, also always organised a guest presenter.
As well as the obvious wisdom of those involved, the informality attracted me coming as it did, at a time when I had been battered around the ears several times by the bureaucracy and of the Institution of Engineers Australia. As time passed, meeting frequency dropped off a bit and I missed going to them sufficiently to occasionally ring Len and ask when the next meeting will be. He indicated that he was becoming progressively more time-pressed and asked if I would first update his mailing list and then call a meeting for him.
So we again came together on 31st October 2007 on another warm evening this time, at the Leinster Arms in Collingwood, meeting first in the outdoor area and then in the dining room. This meeting kicked us off again. The mistake was when Len said a few gracious words, stated that he was standing down and then nominated me as the new chair. But here we are. Since then we have had a Christmas Break-Up Meeting at Richard Lightfoot’s house all food and drinks provided where we also viewed the National Trust’s Beverley Joy Cornell art collection of which Richard was custodian.
In 2008, we started in the George Langley Room at the Leinster Arms and all meetings have been held there since. We have progressively become more formal with a committee of three of us (Mark Dohrmann, Ian Eilenberg and I) coming into being. Incorporation, an AGM, minutes, annual submissions to ASIC, a website, a photographer and a loaner of overhead projection equipment all followed as well as duties such as secretaryship and treasurying. And Yes, also with relatively regular meetings and some fascinating topics, namely :-
Peter Hart - on causes of electrical fires
Colin Baker - on hazardous area electrical requirements
Greg Schofield - on being sued
Ian Eilenberg - on the Victorian bushfire record, and
Mark Dohrmann - on being an expert witness.
Recently Andrew Short joined us on the committee and together, all four of us continue to do our best to do our worst for the group. Andrew’s first contribution aside from organising this evening’s meeting, has been to set a schedule of meetings for the coming year for us all to consider.
There are some musings among members about possibly becoming as formal as joining with IEAust, now known as Engineers Australia or EA. If we were still a loose society, I would oppose this because then we would no longer be our own bosses. But as an incorporated society, this is quite different. The Asset Management Council Inc is a definite part of EA but entirely runs its own show. Maybe this is the way to go for us now. Myself and the committee will be guided by you all.
There is also a desire among some of us to become truly national. Perhaps down the track a bit but there is possibly, a relatively easy starting point. The former Forensic Engineering Society of Engineers Australia which was strongest in Perth, has folded and has now become a very small voice within EA. They may like to join us ! Again, let us know your thoughts.
At this AGM too, we hope to elect a new office-bearer, a vice-chair. There is also one ordinary committee member place available if anyone is interested. In the usual way of course, all positions will be declared vacant this evening and a new committee will be elected.
Apologies for this evening of which I am aware are Russ Lee, Peter Hart, Mark Dohrmann and Richard Lightfoot. All continue to be very much with us I am pleased to say.Particularly for Russ who has had serious health problems following which he has just received the all-clear and is recuperating in Port Douglas.
That is all from me except to say thank you to Mark, Ian and Andrew for their masses of work on behalf of our group. Oh and also to Richard Lightfoot at Christmas 2007 when he visited the poor and starving with the St Vincent de Paul Society soup kitchen - yes we did sup the soup and eat the sarnie … thanks Richard.
Ian F Thomas
Chair, Forensic Engineering Society of Australia Inc
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Our autumn meeting (well, almost), was held on 3 June 2009 at the Leinster Arms in Collingwood, where we considered matters of some importance – the address was “Ten ways to undermine an expert” – presented by Mark Dohrmann
Special welcomes to first-time attendees Gary Martin, Simon Langdon, Marcus Brache, David Lake, David Padfield, Leigh Booth, Michael Beale, Bob LeGuier, Geoff Waddell, Werner Ihle and Margaret Dando. Apologies from Ian Eilenberg, Joe Spano, Andrew Enkelman, Reg Broadbent, Ian Thomas and Patrick Irwin.
Thanks to Andrew Short for recording and preparing this summary of the evening, including photos:
This time Mark Dohrmann introduced topics concerning professionalism in expert witness work. He went through the characteristics of an expert. You must be comfortable in adversarial situations and not display the "ego" and so on.
10 bases for objecting to evidence were -
1. Relevance - the conclusions are not relevant to what happened. (e.g. the floor may be slippery, but he was shot while standing)
2. Hearsay (if tendered to prove the truth of what was said)
3. Conclusion (impermissibly interpreting the meaning of what was said)
4. Competence (and is it set out?)
5. Privilege
6. The "best evidence" rule (eg summarising an existing document)
7. Opinion evidence (similar to “competence”)
8. Assuming a fact which is not in evidence (but OK once an assumed fact is “proven”)
9. Evidence is confusing, misleading, ambiguous, vague, unintelligible
10. Argumentative presentation.
10 ways to undermine an expert were given as -
1. The question does not require an expert.
2. The point is outside the expert’s expertise.
3. No proper basis is set out to support the opinion.
4. An objective, demonstrative procedure is not set out.
5. Opinion given is based on speculation or inferences of fact.
6. Intrusion on an ultimate issue.
7. Impermissibly argumentative.
8. Irrelevance.
9. No “body of specialized knowledge” exists
10. Failure to comply with the Expert’s Code
There were many comments from the floor - notably from Len Cubitt, who replayed a number of his experiences. Michael Beale and Lawrence Reddaway included a number of points of information and there was a throng of members from Attar present. DVExperts were listening intently and representatives from Vic police were vigilant. Peter Hart asked some searching questions and the other attendees all enjoyed the night.
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Previous meeting:
At our first meeting earlier this year (25 March 2009) a warm welcome was extended to first-time guests Joe Spano, Patrick Irwin and Maxwell Shifman. Welcome! Apologies were received from Colin Baker, David Beauchamp, Reg Broadbent, George Rechnitzer, Gary Martin, Russell Lee, Kevin Poulton, Len Cubitt and Ted Dohrmann.
Buildings expert Ian Eilenberg spoke on "Fires. What have we learnt?".
He gave an interesting history of Victorian and other bushfires, underscoring their human and physical destruction in numbers and scale. The presentation and input from those present then ranged across structural factors affecting the combustibility of houses, the evident failure to learn from past investigations, including the work produced by the CSIRO after the 1983 bushfires, the design of security bunkers and refuges, and the recent interim Victorian Regulations addressing building standards in fire-prone areas.
Below: (L:) Ian Eilenberg takes a break; (R:) Lawrence Reddaway, who is drafting a small publication - "Building in Victoria after the Bushfires" - members were invited to comment and contribute to this work (you can contact Lawrence). Incidentally, FESA members Ian Thomas, Ian Eilenberg, Lawrence Reddaway, and George Rechnitzer (chairman) are all assisting the Safety Institute of Australia in preparing its submission to the Royal Commission into the bushfires.
Below, L to R: Maxwell Schifman from DVExperts, Peter Hart, Richard and Elizabeth Lightfoot. Hostess Wilhelmina serves up.
Below: Peter Hart slightly overwhelmed by chef Frank's house seafood special, mussels and all:
Below, L: Patrick Irwin and Joe Spano (both structural engineers) listening to Ian's talk; (R): Llz Lightfoot attentive:
The meeting's discussion then moved to the practical problems of being an expert witness: working with barristers, handling attacks on your credit, presenting evidence, differences between engineering and legal reasoning, our need for training. Mark Dohrmann described a paper he has in preparation for a legal conference - "Nine ways to undermine an expert" (with advice on how to anticipate trouble). It was unanimously agreed that our next meeting (Wednesday June 3 2009) will pick up this topic and be built around an all-in, moderated discussion about working as an expert, aimed at helping all of us learn how to do a better and more effective job in court and beforehand. Mark Dohrmann will convene it.
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Our last and well-attended meeting for 2008 was at our usual pleasant venue - the same Leinster Arms Hotel in Collingwood. Apologies received from Werner Ihle, Trevor Rowlands, Simon Langdon, Kevin Poulton, John Marshall, Richard Lightfoot and Peter Hart.
Guest speaker at the meeting was Greg Schofield, consulting engineer, who spoke on "Being Sued: it happens!" Greg spoke with passion about years of litigation and loss of reputation after a keystone wall he designed unexpectedly collapsed. He explained the meticulous design process, the adoption of a proven German model in the soil mechanics calculations, the uncertainties introduced by the involvement of other parties in the construction, and the vigour of lawyers and their appointed experts to find fault with his work. The personal costs were also heavy. Thankfully the indemnity insurers were there - a cautionary note for all of us who advise or design for others.
We enjoyed a pleasant meal (paid-up members enjoying a good subsidy); wines and pre-dinner drinks were supplied by FESA.
Below: Greg's address, with members and visitors in attendance -
